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		<title>Comment on Oaths, Eyes &amp; Enemies &#8211; SOTM series (6) by Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Hiding In Plain Sight &#8211; SOTM Series (7)</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/11/oaths-eyes-enemies-sotm-series-6/comment-page-1/#comment-484</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Hiding In Plain Sight &#8211; SOTM Series (7)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=156#comment-484</guid>
		<description>[...] Oaths, Eyes &amp; Enemies &#8211; SOTM (6) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Oaths, Eyes &amp; Enemies &#8211; SOTM (6) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Oaths, Eyes &amp; Enemies &#8211; SOTM series (6) by admin</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/11/oaths-eyes-enemies-sotm-series-6/comment-page-1/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=156#comment-445</guid>
		<description>Good points, Tim.  I think that to truly pursue good, that will include fleeing from evil.  Thanks for weighing in.

Peace,
Jamie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, Tim.  I think that to truly pursue good, that will include fleeing from evil.  Thanks for weighing in.</p>
<p>Peace,<br />
Jamie</p>
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		<title>Comment on Oaths, Eyes &amp; Enemies &#8211; SOTM series (6) by Tim Harris</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/11/oaths-eyes-enemies-sotm-series-6/comment-page-1/#comment-444</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=156#comment-444</guid>
		<description>I definitely agree that it is both and that you cannot have one without the other. as i had stated &quot;sin is both.&quot; if we obsess over not being immoral we become pharisees and as i recall Jesus wasn&#039;t too fond of them (what, with the white-washed tombs and all). if we stray too far the other way then we have the same problem that the church in Corinth had. as one of my profs said, &quot;the middle ground is usually where you need to be. not only is it safe but it is biblical.&quot; constantly there are teachings of one thing and then a warning about going to far in one direction (seen best throughout Romans). i agree that our backgrounds have influenced us but there is also the danger of abandoning the right teachings that were muddled with a lack of actions. we need both. pendulums have a way of swinging too far in the other direction but i see that you have yours under control.  not that i doubted this but i just wanted clarity. thanks.
a good illustration of the importance of both views:
Romans 12:9 &quot;Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.&quot;
but also:
Romans 12:21 &quot;Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitely agree that it is both and that you cannot have one without the other. as i had stated &#8220;sin is both.&#8221; if we obsess over not being immoral we become pharisees and as i recall Jesus wasn&#8217;t too fond of them (what, with the white-washed tombs and all). if we stray too far the other way then we have the same problem that the church in Corinth had. as one of my profs said, &#8220;the middle ground is usually where you need to be. not only is it safe but it is biblical.&#8221; constantly there are teachings of one thing and then a warning about going to far in one direction (seen best throughout Romans). i agree that our backgrounds have influenced us but there is also the danger of abandoning the right teachings that were muddled with a lack of actions. we need both. pendulums have a way of swinging too far in the other direction but i see that you have yours under control.  not that i doubted this but i just wanted clarity. thanks.<br />
a good illustration of the importance of both views:<br />
Romans 12:9 &#8220;Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.&#8221;<br />
but also:<br />
Romans 12:21 &#8220;Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Oaths, Eyes &amp; Enemies &#8211; SOTM series (6) by admin</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/11/oaths-eyes-enemies-sotm-series-6/comment-page-1/#comment-440</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=156#comment-440</guid>
		<description>Hey Tim,

Thanks for taking the time to really dig into the material and respond.  I appreciate what you have to say.  I want to push back a little on this for discussions sake and see what you think.

First, I want you to reread my sentence about sin.  As you mentioned, it says, &quot;Rather than primarily about acts of moral failure, He shows us that sin is about &#039;missing the mark&#039;&quot;.  Notice the word &quot;primarily&quot; in the sentence.  This was very intentionally placed there so suggest two things: First, that sin is most definitely about moral failings; and secondly, that this is not the primary or first emphasis Jesus is teaching about the nature of sin.  My point is not that there are not moral failures, but that sin is most wrong because of what it fails to be, not what it is.  Consider the analogy of light and darkness so often used in Scripture, with sin being like darkness and righteousness being light.  Darkness, while it is very real and can blind us, has no substance, it isn&#039;t anything in and of itself.  It is, in fact, the absence of light.  Therefore, you cannot chase away the darkness apart from bringing the light.  In the same way, you cannot understand sin without understanding what light is not present.  If you are greedy, it is not enough to stop being greedy, but you must embrace generosity.  Repentance is about turning, changing, moving in a different direction.  Yes, that includes confession of failings and the need for forgiveness, but in this passage, Jesus is saying that is not enough.  He is saying instead that we must then pursue the light.   That is true righteousness and holiness- not only the absence of darkness (sin), but the presence of light (active, incarnational righteousness).  After all, God isn&#039;t holy because He doesn&#039;t sin, right?  It is far more than that.

I agree that there is a &quot;dangerous trend now that replaces the word &#039;sin&#039; with the word &#039;mistakes&#039;&quot;.  However, I would suggest that the understanding of sin present here is not as example of that.  In fact, I would say it make sin even more serious.  Let me give you an example.  We know that racism is a sin, because it is born of the belief that some races are inherently better than others, which is hateful and denies that all people are made in God&#039;s image.  You and I are not racists.  According the typical view of what sin is, we should not be racist (as it is a clear and serious moral failing).  However, with this understanding of sin that Jesus present, it is not enough for us to be &quot;not racist&quot;.  That would be like try to simply chase away the darkness without embracing the light.  The light in this case- the &quot;other cheek&quot;, the &quot;tunic&quot;, the &quot;extra mile&quot;- requires that we not only reject racism, but are also committed to actively pursuing and celebrating diversity.  That is a much higher standard that makes sin far more serious.  Again, God is not holy and righteous because He doesn&#039;t sin, but because of His nature, which is actively loving, gracious, peaceful, just, merciful, etc.

It is interesting that you quoted Bonhoeffer from his book &quot;The Cost of Discipleship&quot;, as it is in this book that I first learned about how clearly Jesus laid out this understanding of sin.  Like Bonhoeffer, I am not saying that we shouldn&#039;t be a moral people who hate sin, but rather I am saying that THAT isn&#039;t enough.  Bonhoeffer is very clear on what Jesus means.  It is not first about avoiding immorality (though that is an important secondary part of it), but rather first about living like Christ, who pursued God and others with active love and grace. 

No need to apologize for the length of the comment or if you might have misinterpreted me.  You &amp; I both have been raised in good Christian contexts, but contexts that often placed more of an emphasis on the fear of evil than a love of good.  Belief became about accept certain ideas to be true (which is a part of it), instead of about heart, mind &amp; body conviction that leads us to transformed lives of love and service to God and others.  I hope this helps clear things up.

Peace,
Jamie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Tim,</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to really dig into the material and respond.  I appreciate what you have to say.  I want to push back a little on this for discussions sake and see what you think.</p>
<p>First, I want you to reread my sentence about sin.  As you mentioned, it says, &#8220;Rather than primarily about acts of moral failure, He shows us that sin is about &#8216;missing the mark&#8217;&#8221;.  Notice the word &#8220;primarily&#8221; in the sentence.  This was very intentionally placed there so suggest two things: First, that sin is most definitely about moral failings; and secondly, that this is not the primary or first emphasis Jesus is teaching about the nature of sin.  My point is not that there are not moral failures, but that sin is most wrong because of what it fails to be, not what it is.  Consider the analogy of light and darkness so often used in Scripture, with sin being like darkness and righteousness being light.  Darkness, while it is very real and can blind us, has no substance, it isn&#8217;t anything in and of itself.  It is, in fact, the absence of light.  Therefore, you cannot chase away the darkness apart from bringing the light.  In the same way, you cannot understand sin without understanding what light is not present.  If you are greedy, it is not enough to stop being greedy, but you must embrace generosity.  Repentance is about turning, changing, moving in a different direction.  Yes, that includes confession of failings and the need for forgiveness, but in this passage, Jesus is saying that is not enough.  He is saying instead that we must then pursue the light.   That is true righteousness and holiness- not only the absence of darkness (sin), but the presence of light (active, incarnational righteousness).  After all, God isn&#8217;t holy because He doesn&#8217;t sin, right?  It is far more than that.</p>
<p>I agree that there is a &#8220;dangerous trend now that replaces the word &#8217;sin&#8217; with the word &#8216;mistakes&#8217;&#8221;.  However, I would suggest that the understanding of sin present here is not as example of that.  In fact, I would say it make sin even more serious.  Let me give you an example.  We know that racism is a sin, because it is born of the belief that some races are inherently better than others, which is hateful and denies that all people are made in God&#8217;s image.  You and I are not racists.  According the typical view of what sin is, we should not be racist (as it is a clear and serious moral failing).  However, with this understanding of sin that Jesus present, it is not enough for us to be &#8220;not racist&#8221;.  That would be like try to simply chase away the darkness without embracing the light.  The light in this case- the &#8220;other cheek&#8221;, the &#8220;tunic&#8221;, the &#8220;extra mile&#8221;- requires that we not only reject racism, but are also committed to actively pursuing and celebrating diversity.  That is a much higher standard that makes sin far more serious.  Again, God is not holy and righteous because He doesn&#8217;t sin, but because of His nature, which is actively loving, gracious, peaceful, just, merciful, etc.</p>
<p>It is interesting that you quoted Bonhoeffer from his book &#8220;The Cost of Discipleship&#8221;, as it is in this book that I first learned about how clearly Jesus laid out this understanding of sin.  Like Bonhoeffer, I am not saying that we shouldn&#8217;t be a moral people who hate sin, but rather I am saying that THAT isn&#8217;t enough.  Bonhoeffer is very clear on what Jesus means.  It is not first about avoiding immorality (though that is an important secondary part of it), but rather first about living like Christ, who pursued God and others with active love and grace. </p>
<p>No need to apologize for the length of the comment or if you might have misinterpreted me.  You &#038; I both have been raised in good Christian contexts, but contexts that often placed more of an emphasis on the fear of evil than a love of good.  Belief became about accept certain ideas to be true (which is a part of it), instead of about heart, mind &#038; body conviction that leads us to transformed lives of love and service to God and others.  I hope this helps clear things up.</p>
<p>Peace,<br />
Jamie</p>
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		<title>Comment on Oaths, Eyes &amp; Enemies &#8211; SOTM series (6) by Tim Harris</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/11/oaths-eyes-enemies-sotm-series-6/comment-page-1/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=156#comment-438</guid>
		<description>hey jamie. i very much agree that God has called us to a higher standard. this is very important as this is only achievable through Christ&#039;s work in our lives. just because we&#039;re christians doesn&#039;t mean that we don&#039;t have a sin nature any more. it is a constant battle and to go the extra mile in all that we do is even harder.
i do have a question regarding &quot;Rather than primarily about acts of moral failure, He shows us that sin is about “missing the mark”- that is, failing to do God’s best.&quot; i think that there should be caution in this statement. sin is both. God has called us to be holy as well as to go beyond what people expect of us. when Jesus challenges those who condemned the woman caught in adultery Jesus told her to leave her life of sin. adultery is a sin. i understand that there has been an abuse of regarding sin as acts of moral failure in that in the church people have thought of themselves as righteous because they didn&#039;t &quot;smoke, drink or chew or talk with girls who do&quot;. this is wrong in that our righteousness is a filthy rag before God. but does this mean that we stop trying to be righteous? 
you also said, &quot;Too often we view our faith as a way of life that is about making us better people, a philosophy that will improve the quality of your life.  This is a poisonous lie.  It is not about us, but about God. Under the Lordship of Christ, our lives are not our own, in every aspect.&quot; i obviously agree with this in that it is not us but God who works in our hearts to make us a holy people. God as at work in us and we can have faith that he will work out our salvation (Php. 2:12-13). we should daily be broken and live a life of surrender and sacrifice so that God may be seen working in us and then His love will flow out of us. I Thes. 4:7-8 &quot;For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.&quot; God will work in us daily for the rest of our lives. it&#039;s about being imitators of God in His love (Eph. 5:1-2) but also in our purity (Eph. 5:3-21). there is a dangerous trend now that replaces the word &quot;sin&quot; with the word &quot;mistakes&quot;. it is only once we realize the seriousness of our sins and our depravity apart from Christ that we can truly appreciate grace.
&quot;Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. ...what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us.&quot; -Dietrich Bonhoeffer
i hope i did not misinterpret what you meant. this became a really long comment. i apologize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey jamie. i very much agree that God has called us to a higher standard. this is very important as this is only achievable through Christ&#8217;s work in our lives. just because we&#8217;re christians doesn&#8217;t mean that we don&#8217;t have a sin nature any more. it is a constant battle and to go the extra mile in all that we do is even harder.<br />
i do have a question regarding &#8220;Rather than primarily about acts of moral failure, He shows us that sin is about “missing the mark”- that is, failing to do God’s best.&#8221; i think that there should be caution in this statement. sin is both. God has called us to be holy as well as to go beyond what people expect of us. when Jesus challenges those who condemned the woman caught in adultery Jesus told her to leave her life of sin. adultery is a sin. i understand that there has been an abuse of regarding sin as acts of moral failure in that in the church people have thought of themselves as righteous because they didn&#8217;t &#8220;smoke, drink or chew or talk with girls who do&#8221;. this is wrong in that our righteousness is a filthy rag before God. but does this mean that we stop trying to be righteous?<br />
you also said, &#8220;Too often we view our faith as a way of life that is about making us better people, a philosophy that will improve the quality of your life.  This is a poisonous lie.  It is not about us, but about God. Under the Lordship of Christ, our lives are not our own, in every aspect.&#8221; i obviously agree with this in that it is not us but God who works in our hearts to make us a holy people. God as at work in us and we can have faith that he will work out our salvation (Php. 2:12-13). we should daily be broken and live a life of surrender and sacrifice so that God may be seen working in us and then His love will flow out of us. I Thes. 4:7-8 &#8220;For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.&#8221; God will work in us daily for the rest of our lives. it&#8217;s about being imitators of God in His love (Eph. 5:1-2) but also in our purity (Eph. 5:3-21). there is a dangerous trend now that replaces the word &#8220;sin&#8221; with the word &#8220;mistakes&#8221;. it is only once we realize the seriousness of our sins and our depravity apart from Christ that we can truly appreciate grace.<br />
&#8220;Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. &#8230;what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us.&#8221; -Dietrich Bonhoeffer<br />
i hope i did not misinterpret what you meant. this became a really long comment. i apologize.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Murder, Adultery &amp; Divorce &#8211; SOTM series (5) by Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Oaths, Eyes &#38; Enemies &#8211; SOTM series 6</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/10/murder-adultery-divorce-sotm-series-5/comment-page-1/#comment-432</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Oaths, Eyes &#38; Enemies &#8211; SOTM series 6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=153#comment-432</guid>
		<description>[...] Murder, Adultery &amp; Divorce &#8211; SOTM (5) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Murder, Adultery &amp; Divorce &#8211; SOTM (5) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Setting the Stage for Sermon on the Mount by Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Salt &#38; Light/The Law &#8211; SOTM Series (4)</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/09/setting-the-stage-for-sermon-on-the-mount/comment-page-1/#comment-361</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Salt &#38; Light/The Law &#8211; SOTM Series (4)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=141#comment-361</guid>
		<description>[...] Setting the Stage – SOTM (1) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Setting the Stage – SOTM (1) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Setting the Stage for Sermon on the Mount by Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Beatitudes Part 2 &#8211; Sermon on the Mount (3)</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/09/setting-the-stage-for-sermon-on-the-mount/comment-page-1/#comment-305</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Flowers Community &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Beatitudes Part 2 &#8211; Sermon on the Mount (3)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=141#comment-305</guid>
		<description>[...] Setting the Stage &#8211; SOTM (1) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Setting the Stage &#8211; SOTM (1) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Justice DTS Has A Few More Openings by admin</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/08/justice-dts-has-a-few-more-openings/comment-page-1/#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 00:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=137#comment-226</guid>
		<description>Hey Al,

Thanks!  It happens in its time.  Keep pursuing.

Peace,
Jamie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Al,</p>
<p>Thanks!  It happens in its time.  Keep pursuing.</p>
<p>Peace,<br />
Jamie</p>
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		<title>Comment on Justice DTS Has A Few More Openings by Al</title>
		<link>http://littleflowers.ca/2009/08/justice-dts-has-a-few-more-openings/comment-page-1/#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 23:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://littleflowers.ca/?p=137#comment-225</guid>
		<description>As a fellow YWAMer, I can certainly relate.  I&#039;m glad we are progressing (at least by fits and starts) into a mission that is more missional.
My own progression seems just as sporadic, but it always feels like it is at least in the right direction.  Part of the challenge is allowing the unnecessary/inappropriate/unChristlike stuff to fall off when there still seem to be so many devout Christians holding on to the same stuff.  
I think I&#039;d love to be a part of your Little Flowers Community.  It sounds like it is along the same lines of what I am looking for around Victoria--but haven&#039;t found yet, and I don&#039;t think I&#039;m ready to start it.
Blessings, guys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a fellow YWAMer, I can certainly relate.  I&#8217;m glad we are progressing (at least by fits and starts) into a mission that is more missional.<br />
My own progression seems just as sporadic, but it always feels like it is at least in the right direction.  Part of the challenge is allowing the unnecessary/inappropriate/unChristlike stuff to fall off when there still seem to be so many devout Christians holding on to the same stuff.<br />
I think I&#8217;d love to be a part of your Little Flowers Community.  It sounds like it is along the same lines of what I am looking for around Victoria&#8211;but haven&#8217;t found yet, and I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m ready to start it.<br />
Blessings, guys.</p>
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